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10/23/2011 10:02 am  #1


Can this be done ???

Hi everybody,

I have a Jaguar IRS that was changed to outboard disc brakes as Daze did. This setup is done to go under a '67 Mustang and also will have watts link style trailing arms on each side. Because of the unique hub design these outboard disc have, it is not possible to drill the hubs for the ford bolt pattern therefore the need for spacers.

Today I put on the rims on the hubs and noticed that the caliper & rotors are to deep inside the wheel against my liking! The solution would be removal of the spacers but then the bolt pattern problem is back.

After some brainstorming I got the idea to make offset wheel studs as pistured below The big trucks have big studs that could be machined that way but would it be a good Idea????

What do you thing?

Mustsed

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc334/mustsed/Stud.jpg


Nothing is impossible, some just cost more!
 

10/23/2011 1:18 pm  #2


Re: Can this be done ???

I would only consider it IF the the wheel was supported by a hubcentric ring on the hub.  If you are relying on the the studs to position the wheel it would be to hard to get the wheel properly centered and vibrations could arise.

Your thought give me an idea,  maybe we are going at this the wrong way.  The difference in the bolt pattern is only 1/8" per hole so what if you removed the OEM studs weld up the outside edge of the holes and then redrill the pattern??  Most of the weld would then be drilled out especially if you get a stud that has a bigger press section also by only welding up the outside you minimize heat which should help maintain hub strength .  When I was first looking for studs I found some that were 1/2" bolts but the press shoulders were 5/8"


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

10/23/2011 9:33 pm  #3


Re: Can this be done ???

Forgive my ignorance, but what prevents redrilling the hubs and rotors?

Two considerations regarding the studs - first, I second Daze's concern over getting them indexed properly, and further the rolled threads on a manufactured stud are going to be stronger than cut threads on a machined-down stud.   Maybe not enough to matter.

 

10/24/2011 7:52 am  #4


Re: Can this be done ???

There are a couple of issues.  On a Jag hub with inboard disc brakes the hub can simply be redrilled using my 3-hole jig
http://home.bresnan.net/%7Edazed/bolt%20pattern.jpg

It is used by mounting said jig between two wheel studs on the original Jag pattern and then using the center hole in the jig to drill out an 1/8" pilot hole in the new pattern.  Once the pilot hole has been drilled the jig can be moved to the next position and the next pilot hole can be drilled.  Click Here to Order
http://home.bresnan.net/%7Edazed/bolt%20pattern%20hub.jpg


unfortunately with out board discs that is not an option.  The rotor is not that big of a deal, just one more thing to drill, the issue is the adjuster hole for the parking brake. the hole is right where the new pattern will need to be. I highlighted the hole in the picture.   
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1396/x308highlight.jpg

Also I forgot to mention that the flange is different thicknesses where the studs are as apposed to where they need to go for the Ford pattern. you can kind of see it in this pic. The bump on the back side of the wheel flange in the picture is not the wheel stud.  It is where the flange is thicker to support the wheel stud.
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/4543/x308a.jpg

So the only option in modifying the hub to have the correct pattern is to do so in basically the same location as the original pattern studs, just 1/8" closer to the center of the hub.


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

10/28/2011 4:33 pm  #5


Re: Can this be done ???

well I have a solution, but you are not going to like it.  What if you get a hub for a Mark VIII rear or a front hub from a 4WD ranger 
http://www.am-autoimages.com/partimage/SHR/AM-90685785/main.JPG
 
http://www.am-autoimages.com/partphoto/SHR/AM-90685785/middle_1.JPG
 
and then either machine the Jag hubs to except it, OR make your own hub similar to the one on the IRS pictured below.
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/7840/rearsuspension.jpg


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

10/29/2011 12:12 am  #6


Re: Can this be done ???

Making hubs is practical if your wallet is deep enough and as long as the inside spline isn't something too odd.   Plenty of places can cut straight splines. 

When it came to cutting a Ford pitman arm to fit the metric tapered spline of a German ZF steering box output shaft the only economical approach I found was...well, to send them to Mustsed in Turkey for him to have them done.

The Mark VIII hubs are of no use, those were 5x4.25in.  The '98-04 Mustang Cobra hubs are the same basic shape but have 5x4.5in bolt circle and a larger hub pilot, but Ford wants a fair bit of money for those things.   I would be surprised if that hub would fit, as the FN10/MN12/SN99 Cobra rear uprights use a Timken SET49 one-piece double tapered roller bearing cartridge assembly.

What diameter are those studs at their bases?  If my googling is accurate...do the Jag studs screw in from the front, or press in from the back?   They're all 1/2-20, and the only X300/X308 studs I can find that are a press-in have only a .540 diameter knurl.   The centerline of the stud moves in about 0.12in for the Ford bolt circle.   

I'd just have the holes welded up, clean up the faces of the flange and then drill them on a 5x4.5 bolt circle, maybe for something like a Moroso 46190 stud (1/2-20 x 3) that needs a .680 nominal hole.   You'd end up with very little of the weld material left anyway. 

Then you get to consider hub-centering of the wheels on the hub pilot...what's the pilot diameter on those hubs?

Last edited by JEM (10/29/2011 9:10 am)

 

10/29/2011 1:24 pm  #7


Re: Can this be done ???

I had the idea of just removing the stud part of the hub and making a new one that would be welded to the center piece without disturbing the splined and bearing area, does this sound safe?

The Jaguar studs are bolted from the wheel side and the studs have a shoulder between the wheel and hub thread but both are 1/2" threads.

Logical seen the best would be to just weld the holes and redrill them and as JEM mentioned, there would be only a little weld left.

If this would be a Chevrolet car, things would be easier (just thinking loud)!!

Mustsed

Last edited by Mustsed (10/29/2011 1:26 pm)


Nothing is impossible, some just cost more!
     Thread Starter
 

10/29/2011 2:50 pm  #8


Re: Can this be done ???

isn't that basically what I said a few posts up, "weld and redrill"    with my idea you are minimizing the welding and heat soak but it will be hard to get it accurate so doing the weld it up completely and redrill it option will probably be better.  I don't think I would do the cut and weld option.  If you look at all the hubs for various applications they are all a one piece design.  I bet that is not only for strength but also for balance.  If you weld it up it will be hard to get the part balanced correctly.  So if you are ditching the adapters what are you going to do to take up the extra inch per side that the the rear will be narrower than stock???


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

10/29/2011 4:23 pm  #9


Re: Can this be done ???

Daze wrote:

isn't that basically what I said a few posts up, "weld and redrill"    with my idea you are minimizing the welding and heat soak but it will be hard to get it accurate so doing the weld it up completely and redrill it option will probably be better.

Yes.

I'd just weld up the holes, drill, and press in a stud with a head on it.   I think I saw in some Googling that later X308s did have pressed-in studs, but those studs have a small shank and a small head.  I'd use something with a fatter knurl and a bigger head, just so that in drilling the new pattern more of the hole would be in original metal and more of the weld would be removed.    Check out the ARP, Moroso, and Dorman stud listings to find something you like. 

Might not be able to change a broken stud without pulling the hub, maybe depending on the length of the stud.  That's the only real issue I can see. 

You won't be able to drill the thing accurately with a drill and a jig - you'd need a machine-shop-quality drill press or vertical mill with a rotary table, etc.

If you're concerned about hub runout after welding you can chuck the thing in a lathe by the bearing surface, spin it up, and take off a couple thousandths from the wheel face.  Probably need to do a clean-up cut on the bosses on the back side to ensure a flat surface for the stud heads anyway.

Still far less work than any of the other strategies discussed.

Last edited by JEM (10/29/2011 4:29 pm)

 

11/01/2011 11:51 am  #10


Re: Can this be done ???

Mustsed wrote:

Today I put on the rims on the hubs and noticed that the caliper & rotors are to deep inside the wheel against my liking! The solution would be removal of the spacers but then the bolt pattern problem is back.

Here is a thought, what if you put the adapter between the hub and the  rotor and then used a 1" spacer to move the calipers out to match???


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

11/01/2011 1:50 pm  #11


Re: Can this be done ???

Tought of that and alot other ways but what about the emergency brake setup inside the rotor?

Mustsed


Nothing is impossible, some just cost more!
     Thread Starter
 

11/01/2011 1:54 pm  #12


Re: Can this be done ???

I will need to go out and look but I think those parts could be shimmed out as well


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

11/01/2011 2:14 pm  #13


Re: Can this be done ???

Alot of parts have to be custom made or at least the parking brake cables have to. To much hassle for such a small advantage.

I like the idea of welding the holes and redrilling with the new bolt patern. This will give the best result and I can use the added space for deeeeeeeeeper dish wheels!

Mustsed

Last edited by Mustsed (11/01/2011 2:15 pm)


Nothing is impossible, some just cost more!
     Thread Starter
 

11/01/2011 2:30 pm  #14


Re: Can this be done ???

Mustsed wrote:

I like the idea of welding the holes and redrilling with the new bolt patern. This will give the best result and I can use the added space for deeeeeeeeeper dish wheels!

Oh sure now you tell me, I guess I will quit trying to come up with solutions 


If it isn't broken..... modify it anyway!!!!
http://dazecars.com/dazed/JagArmssignature.jpg
 

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