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You just gave me an idea TR. If I made two, why not 10? Maybe some Vette conversion guys would want the same.
With the right layout and price - I would play - Then I'd have more spare bits to flog on the web!
Seriously - a hub/bearing carrier/upright that uses STOCK C3 bearings, and spindle with adequate opportunity for a reasonable offset and ID on wheels -- would be a good player. And I think a good interest on the VM site too. My reluctance to move on a Piers hub was doing the welding and keeping the precision I'd want - by myself. A well planned machined Hub/Spindle/Bearing Carrier/Upright would make fabbing a DIY IRS a "piece of cake" for many people -- and therefore more marketable.
Especially if you could get it to the $150-200 per side. Like TR suggests- better than chopping up a C3 part. A purpose-built piece that would sell on demand.
I could get you a couple of parameters to consider. For example:
1. Dual mount for LCA,
2. Single (or dual) for UCA,
3. Stubs for dual TAs (forward), and
4. A single stub aft for Toe control.
5. Interface control aspects - to consider -- 1.5 inches for all "stubs." That would accomodate Spohn Spherical jonts at the upright and all 3/4 inch Heims too - with spacers.
6. Precision drilling of holes for mounting the heims/sphericals, and naturally the bearings for the the spindles too.
As a CNC project the main body section would be all pretty much the same. C3 starndard bearing style carrier.
Literally, if an ''option," like the dual TAs not wanted - then don't use that CAM file. A separate CAM file - that matches 3 basic upright designs.
You could choose to precut the blocks/blanks and do a "special order" when a requirement comes in. Machining done Just-in-Time, and with a deposit!
RACEFAB has some uprights they sell for too much for me to consider -- $450 EACH SIDE - whew - no thanks! (And they are welded steel plate....)
Could offer powder coating as a plus - but the buyer could leave "natural"or coat at their end.
Just a few things to consider.
Like I said - for the right spec and cost -- I would play!
Last edited by phantomjock (2/01/2012 5:24 pm)
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This must be the one. I see the four bolt pattern. 
PJ, I was referring to just the bearing carrier. But? I would do better with dimensions. I've wandered in and out of programing. I have a promise that I will be going to a Mazak programming course soon. I run three different generations of Mazak CNC mills now. On top of about ten various other machines. I do good when I'm pushed at times.
By the way I am selling a Gerstner wood box, I have it listed on CL $390.00. Never had tools in it, spanky new inside, walnut wood. The guy used it for pencils. If you know someone, they list for over $900.00. Mine has 11 drawers.
Ralphy
Last edited by Ralphy (2/01/2012 6:06 pm)
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No comment
Last edited by tyrellracing (10/27/2012 6:52 pm)
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TR, You make a good point about reducing metal on the bearing carrier. Also guys at VettMod are making the uprights from stainless, I forget the series, maybe 17-4.
Unfortunately the days of robbing cutoffs for me are done. Most of what we have is esoteric high dollar materials that can be a bear to machine. Lot's of beryllium copper, odd stainless, aluminum nickle bronze, inconel, about 75% nickle. We wear out carbide and break it like no tomorrow machining inconel.
Here's Pier's C3 deal. The link to the far right can be moved up or down to dial in the roll steer
Here's StingrayX's Stainless upright
Then The Guldstrand Aluminum Upright
Last edited by Ralphy (2/01/2012 6:57 pm)
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That Guilstrand unit is nice - first one of those versions I've seen. ANy leads on a source??? Haven't seen it.
The Piers ones are also nice fabrications -- pinning the loads so they are all on "axis" and loaded in double sheer.
And being water jet or plasma cut and somewelding - a low cost option - not as elegant as a milled piece - of course-- or a purpose cast and then milled one.
The loads on the UCA shown on the RACEFAB are "less than ideal." Putting the Heim on that load 90 degrees out of plane is looking for failure IMHO.
For a my envisioned use - I'd look for a design similar to the the Guillstarnd. But, with 2 LCA mounts like the one on the left of the image. And of course you see the C3 mounting holes - so it looks suspiciously like it is/was used with the C3 bearing carrier too? Maybe the gap in the center (LCA) location is for the former lower strut mount? With a bit of modding, to that design could be a start.
Ralphy - That is a georgeous looking tool box. Wish I had the dosh - for a pencil box!
TR have you got a number on the High Mileage failures?? 50K, 100K? That could be ok for some of our apps - you know with only a dozen or so hard track days a year -- infrequent daily drives -- maybe 2-4K a year? Or, am I missing a bit of miles there?
Good thinking here guys -- exciting stuff!!
Cheers - Jim
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Jim,
The Guldstrand pic is TT's I was posting for a few reasons but one is. Doesn't it look weak compared to all the others?
Ralphy
Last edited by Ralphy (2/02/2012 3:07 am)
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COmpared to the original big and box-shapped Greenwood's, but it's probably good to 1.5+ gs on 3000 lb vehicle. Look at the C5/C6 LCA/UCAs. And those are aluminum - similar "material sizing I'd say.
With a it of CAD, a Finite Element Analysis would prove the design. Say, doesn't you brother do that for a living too?
Up early ar you? Cheers - Jim
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A second reason to compare? TR talks of using high carbon steel. So going from aluminum to 4140? My thinks is that should not be required. Mild steel should be fine!
Early day today, OT!
And PJ I know your holdin out on us, yous gots the formmal edumacation! 
The Flying Dutchman told me Guldstrand does not recommend using the shock mount for a coilover, only use the leaf. The Guldstrand ad promotes this setup as coilover useable. He said he tries to keep a unit around.
Who's brother?
Expecting rain in Moultrie I think.
Have I ever said, I really like that setup made by The Roadster Shop? LOL! AGAIN!
The only thing I see that I do not like? The LCA is made of 1 5/8", 1.625. Good for 1,400 HP. If I'm only producing 500 or 600 HP. Do I really need the extra weight? Could they build a lighter duty unit?
I'm somewhere between the KA design and that Roadster Shop Design minus the UCA and in place a Watts Link plus another link to lean on.
Ralphy
Last edited by Ralphy (2/02/2012 6:51 pm)
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Thats a good point on that unit for the coil-over.
Sorry on the "your brother" - I guess TR has the brother - engineer for the FEA.
Rain will be a bit of a mess - but there's 3 days - to slog through it.
Build a lighter unit? Heck - you could mill one of those -- but how much weight would you save? Maybe one gallon of fuel? Probably not worth the set up time. Heck when this engine s not enough -- maybe need it for something bigger!
Cheers - Jim
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I'll start a separate thread later - unless Ralphy beats me to it -- I was thinking we could look at Funky Rear Uprights. The designs out there can maybe help someone break some creative juices in their designs too.
Here is the Greenwood (box approach)
Note it uses the C3 Bearing Carrier.
I am considering a similar approach - here is a quick and dirty graphic -- SolidWorks may follow later:
This could be welded up and use the C3 Bearing carrier -- note in this application - I've flipped it upside down. That way a bit wider spread at the bottom of the upright for the LCAs and still mount everything in double shear.
Let's see the juices flow!
Cheers - Jim
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Here's another pic with the leaf. Jim, I'm sure you saw this but it's what you want with a leaf spring, no? Just looks so heavy! The upright, is it made of aluminum? The Flying Dutchman sure gets around also.
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 8:03 am)
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No comment
Last edited by tyrellracing (10/27/2012 6:53 pm)
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TR,
We got in a piece of raw inconel. A ring about 40" OD X 32" ID X 4" thick non aircraft certs, $18,000.00. I read the packing slip. Then it took days to machine. We use some for our heat treat ovens as fixtures. We slop Phillips Milk Of Magnesia between between the inconel part and inconel fixture so they do not bond together. I rework lots of those GE parts. We rebuild engines, A rebuild I think can run up to 4 million dollars.
My area does the combustion chambers. Mostly GE and Pratt, PW's. We also do a lot of thermal spray. Metal spray. There is a newer process called HVOF, high velocity oxygen fed process. It takes the place of hard chrome for us, pretty cool stuff.
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 7:21 am)
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So.
Last edited by tyrellracing (10/27/2012 6:54 pm)
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I hear some guys were taking engine parts in like pistons and spraying them. LOL! That's stopped!
We also have a composite shop where they make our own carbon fiber parts. A pair of 2 million dollar grinders (DANOBAT) that spin the entire rotating assembly at about 2,500 RPM and grind the blades at speed. The blades are hung loose in a jet motor. They sling outward when spun and grow from heat, plus stretch a bit . Lasers measure the OD's while spinning. The first start up in our testing area ( jet dynos), the blades set into the honeycomb engine seals. The seals stop air from going around outside the blades.
Honeycomb Spark Erosion
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 8:10 am)
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TR,
Your questioning the coilovers on the the LCA. I'm here questioning if they should be on the upright. Like Corvette does. Either way, people are making both work I guess.
Ralphy
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PJ,
Thoughts:
1. If I make a LCA with two mounted outer points. The wider the LCA is, the narrower I can get away with the UCA being?
2. If I were to use Heims for the outer LCA points, attaching the upright. Going with 3/4" Heims at the uprights would eliminate any strength (durability) issues. Maybe even getting away with sleeving these for 5/8" bolts?
Super wide two point LCA, narrow single point UCA. The wider LCA can be mounted far enough forward at the upright, so I can have my coilover inside both outer upright points. Now I can easily build a double sheer mount for the coilover. No roll steer with this design.!
Ralphy
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Ralphy wrote:
PJ,
Thoughts:
1. If I make a LCA with two mounted outer points. The wider the LCA is, the narrower I can get away with the UCA being?
2. If I were to use Heims for the outer LCA points, attaching the upright. Going with 3/4" Heims at the uprights would eliminate any strength (durability) issues. Maybe even getting away with sleeving these for 5/8" bolts?
Super wide two point LCA, narrow single point UCA. The wider LCA can be mounted far enough forward at the upright, so I can have my coilover inside both outer upright points. Now I can easily build a double sheer mount for the coilover. No roll steer with this design.!
Ralphy
DAMN RALPHY! I'm gonna put on the Tin Foil Hat for sure now!!! 
You just hit on a couple of the features I am going to use. I'll go ahead and tell the rest - so you won't guess -- well, for now:
1. The LCA - In dual shear. Wide H-Bone Style. A plate welded between the two for the leaf spring mount below. Inboard mounts between 14 - 18 inches spacing fore and aft --still working. On the Upright no closer than 4 inches on center on the inboard mount (fore aft). Not planning any Anti Squat - but keeping the options available with a bit of creative mounting options.
2. BTW - Before you go and buy some Heims!!! I have some spare Aurora Heims I won't be using -- Going with Spohns - just came in the mail today -- like those turbine blades though --$$. I'd need to do an inventory etc - but will make a deal... When I get it sorted will post in classified section.
3. I was considering a dual/split upper CA mount at the upright, but have been leaning as you pointed out - a single on the hub and a bit narrower at the inboard -- and much shorter too - 60 percent or so of the LCA.
For the coilovers -- I'm passing for now - keep the options open and using the double mount 'glass leaf mono first -- and leave room and plan for the pushrod to belcrank mount on the UCA. A bit like the LCA -- a plate welded between the 2 arms. (I'll build and mount the shocks this way and keep the option for coil overs in play 
)
Yer - right -- all about roll steer and setting the Camber and Toe, keeping things together, etc. That's the rest of the Upright Design...
I'll do some more posting in a bit..
Cheers - Jim
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1962 C2 Corvette IRS with drum brakes in a 1953 MG
,19985
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 6:15 pm)
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I never measured the camber rod bolts.Jim are they 1/2" or 5/8"? Do you know?
I'm not sure of the UCA to LCA ratios. But I have rough measured my LCA and halfshaft. Lengths are 18" and 12", which is what 66%? So my guess would be, if adding an UCA it would be a bit shorter than the half shaft. Which falls into your 60% length.
I figure I can use my stock half shafts to match the camber curve I want. Then buy splined units after. Can CV's be used with a C3 setup?
Just got off my butt and measured the camber rod. It's 5/8" at the bearing support, then 1/2" at the inner point.
Heidts gets away without an UCA. Why do I need something gorilla stiff if I go wide enough on the LCA? Also if the LCA is wider, I can reduce any twisting on the upright. Again looking at how flimsy that aluminum Guldstrand piece is? I would place the front pivot point further forward than Guldstrand.
Jim, I'm going to wear you out! What size tubing is needed for 3/4" Heims? I will remember you having spares. Those are the good ones, yes?
Looking at my differential and the angle it's at. If I followed the same original angle of the inner camber rod bolt. I will have about 2 to 5 degree anti squat. When I build a new LCA inner mount I could make it zero.
Ralphy
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 6:56 pm)
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Try to follow this. The stock C3 configuration has the camber rod pointing downward toward the wheel. Make a new upright raising the outer point to where your new LCA is level, so is the half shaft. Typically the idea would be to make an UCA that would be level on a C3. Point it upward, again LCA level. This keeps the camber curve near same. By doing this the HS centerline moves closer to the LCA. This will strengthen the upright in a sense because the HS center is closer to the two base points (LCA). Reduces the lbs. wanting to roll the half shaft over forward of the LCA. Plus it will reduce the ability to twist the upright around under hard acceleration. Stronger! Now cut the bearing support off, not needed. Reduced weight with no sacrifice for strength. In fact the LCA could even be raised up another inch at both ends! That is if the differential could be cleared. Or shorten the LCA's a little.
Top view is a rough dimensional sketch of factory C3 points.
Bottom is with the LCA level and wheel centerline closer to the LCA.
If you look at the T Bird design, it is this way the LCA is way closer to the half shaft center line than the UCA. And the UCA is upward to the wheel.
Again the closer the LCA to the HS the stronger. Look at the outer mounting brackets and coilover end, lower then the LCA.
In this pic the unit does not have a true UCA.
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 11:09 pm)
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Now to figure out the roll center change? The IC has to be lower but at what distance out? If the LCA is level the IC would be at the LCA level. Heavier anti sway bars would probably be needed. Plus the front roll center would possibly need to be lowered.
That's it! I'm excited, copy that Ford design, it's pretty bad azz! Gotta play around with the UCA, but that's it!
Last edited by Ralphy (2/06/2012 11:04 pm)
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Ralphy -
This is what happens when you have the day off and I've got to go to work! I'll try and answer as many as I can.
I see you got the Strut rod details OK. That's clear.
For the 3/4 Heim joints - the bearing (hole) is 5/8 and there are a number of sources to bush it down to 1/2. For the tube, My Hex rods are 1 1/8 across the flats (1 1/4 peak to peak as a diameter to start with.) Threads are 3/4 - 16 (as I recall.) I have some "great Heim joints" and some "good ones too." Also, I have some bolts (shoulder, etc) for mounting and some sleeves/misalignment bushings etc. Will need to inventory next weekend. There are steel strut rods available, and yo can build them using the threaded inserts too. I'd have to check the size pricing on that -- maybe take a look at the Bits and Pieces thread?
You can get the UCA where you want it by moving the inboard mounting up or down too. So the Upright is not the only design factor to play with. For UCA to LCA, a lot of designs are in the 55-70+ percent, and the 60 percent seem about the average/norm. Using the BonesApart - you can model all that with your sketch you drew - and get the percents spot on.. BonesApart (free--works as a spreadsheet -- see the software thread) - will only model one arm on the wishbone.. Gotta pay more money to get 2 arms and anti-squat/dive.
Before you cut metal on the uprights - let me post that thread on Uprights. Its 0430 - and gotta goo work out - then maybe this afternoon after work.
I have a plethora of upright designs to review and make a few comments on.
Cheers - Jim
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C4 In A Blazer
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Is this guy asking for trouble? Those coilover mounts, Hmmm........
Pro Squat anyone?
This should maybe be titled, how not to do it. Look at the trailing links in the upper photo. Wheels hanging, it still appears they are lower in front.
Last edited by Ralphy (2/07/2012 5:57 am)
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See, raise the LCA and make it level with the half shaft. The two triangles roughly show the C3 upright geometry stock to the left. The new right view positions, widen the LCA points and narrow the vertical distance between the LCA and HS. This will add strength to the upright. Leverage will be less because the points are closer. I should have widened the inner LCA points more like an A-arm.
Also removing the outer bearing support camber rod mount. Will allow you to use a 3/4" bolt at the upright to match the Heims. The 3/4" Heims can be used all the way around now, with 3/4" shaft/bolts.
Last edited by Ralphy (2/07/2012 7:48 am)
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Ralphy -
I think I see where you are going on this.
Are you planning on using the diff carrier (big cross member) in your app?
What about the TAs?
Or, just for illustration purposes? I expect this is what you mean. Building a subframe - or attaching to existing frame structure?
Like the LCA H-"bone.". And agree on the UCA narrower on upright - I think -- not committed to cutting and welding -- yet!
Cheers - Jim
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No trailing arms or links. DWB similar to the T Bird aftermarket above. I think i can find enough points to latch onto. To solidly mount the inner points on both control arms.
The factory cross member is out. Replaced by a 1 3/4" tube, will be aided by down tubes attached at the lower end of the differential.
Like this.
Last edited by Ralphy (2/08/2012 6:05 am)
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C3 with an UCL and splined half-shafts.
Last edited by Ralphy (3/03/2012 2:29 am)
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C4 in a BMW
Last edited by Ralphy (3/12/2012 6:09 pm)
