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5/01/2012 2:08 pm  #1


Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

I thought I'd throw out my plan for putting an XKS rear end in my '49 Ford Coupe.

I've taken measurements the best I could of the rear end, and measured the wheel well, wheel dimensions, and tire cross section that will be going in to see what I'd have to do to make all work out. I'm relatively comfortable with the dimensions, but sometimes "tape measure" dimensions could be off a little bit.

I have not been able to locate on this site any dimensional drawings of my XKS rear end... so I thought I'd just ask...

Assuming that the rear end weight makes the lowers horizontal, then theoretically, all should be fine. But before I start ordering steel and firing up the welder, maybe somebody could confirm what I've drawn makes good sense. It also seems that if I ever have a flat, the rear end will have to be dropped out of the car to change the tire. UGH!

You can see the "arcs" that I drew to get that big fat 10.2" wide tire out from under the fender well. and that requires that the lower arm be on the ground. That ain't gonna happen either..

Anyway, ANY critical feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, guys..
oops apparently one cannot include a link OR A STINKING IMAGE until three postings are done......JEEZZ So go to my profile and click on the link there..click any picture and it zooms in, click again and it zooms back out. The drawing is the third picture....... thanks again

 

5/01/2012 3:56 pm  #2


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Welcome aboard!
Sorry - I was going to pick it up and post for you -- but the URL is incomplete.  Maybe reload/post it here (URL).

Cheers - Jim


UNDERCONSTRUCTION! Highly Modified C3 Corvette
         Dual Wishbone IRS w Subframe + Custom Uprights
 

5/01/2012 5:33 pm  #3


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Well, I've learned that apparently this web site won't allow pictures OR URL's until and unless I first make three posts..

Oh, I just thought.. this is the second,.. look for number 3 and then I'll try to post the URL....Grrrrrrrrrr

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5/01/2012 5:35 pm  #4


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

ok, this is the third post...oh GAWD, now I can't post any more often than once per minute.... holy cow...

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5/01/2012 5:37 pm  #5


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

ok, Now let's see what happens...

http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/PaulGerdes/49%20Ford%20Coupe%20Start%20Mid%20May%202011/?action=view&current=Jagdwggray001-JagDwggray2finally.jpg#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs28.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc231%2FPaulGerdes%2F49%2520Ford%2520Coupe%2520Start%2520Mid%2520May%25202011%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DSintonCar49only.jpg

Last edited by Daze (5/01/2012 5:46 pm)

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5/01/2012 5:39 pm  #6


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Looks like it worked.... check out the third picture... click on the drawing and it will zoom in, and/or you can save it and print if ya wish..click it again to go back to the smaller version, then you can flip through all of what's going on around here...

Thanks, guys

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5/01/2012 5:41 pm  #7


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

49 FC here.
Right click on image. Then select view image. If you want to post it here copy and paste the address then put the address in [img].......[/img]

Last edited by Ralphy (5/01/2012 5:45 pm)

 

5/01/2012 5:42 pm  #8


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

COOL ! ! ! !... Thanks, Ralphy !

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5/01/2012 5:46 pm  #9


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Welcome Aboard!

You can do the same with any image on line.

Last edited by Ralphy (5/01/2012 5:48 pm)

 

5/01/2012 5:53 pm  #10


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

AW, DAAANG ! Looks like I'm going to be up all night checkin' out all those vids.. that first one is BAAD ASS ! !!

Thanks, again, Ralphy.

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5/01/2012 7:49 pm  #11


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

So your showing 2" clearance inside and 3" above the tire? How much travel are you looking for?

Ralphy

 

5/01/2012 8:25 pm  #12


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Well, Ralphy, I was friggin' guessing.. I DO NOT KNOW how much travel there is. It appears it's dependent on the shock travel. Am I guessing correctly?

The two inches is just for "grins", as it doesn't take any more effort to make it 1" or 6", and "prewelding" the new frame members will probably cause me to do 3" roughly, then cut out the old frame for about 3 feet of the ass end...

Maybe somebody can say how much "up" travel there is on an XKS..(by the way, the fact that I keep saying XKS is just 'cause the guy that sold it to me "said" it was an XKS. I have no idea...

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5/01/2012 9:29 pm  #13


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Hang tight the Jag guys will post soon I'm sure. Day the board owner will know.

Ralphy

 

5/01/2012 9:54 pm  #14


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Hi Paul, 
Welcome to the forum.  Sorry you had trouble getting pictures to load.  First off, let's figure out what rear end you have.  Do you have inboard or outboard disc brakes?  Some pictures of what you have to work with will help.
Cheers,
Irstang


"'Cars are like primates. They need to squat to go.'—Carroll Smith"
 

5/01/2012 10:11 pm  #15


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

They are inboard.. check it out
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c231/PaulGerdes/49%20Ford%20Coupe%20Start%20Mid%20May%202011/?action=view&current=SintonCar49only.jpg#!oZZ4QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs28.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc231%2FPaulGerdes%2F49%2520Ford%2520Coupe%2520Start%2520Mid%2520May%25202011%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DDSC00994.jpg

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5/02/2012 12:56 am  #16


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Looks like a first generation XJ6 or XJ12 and very complete!  This is the best unit in my opinion.  Salisbury differential gives you the best choices in gearing.  I like the inboard brakes, also.  Are you going to rebuild the whole assembly in the cage and weld the cage to your frame? 
Or, are you going to un-cage your Jag like http://www.snowwhiteltd.com/instructions.htm
Keeping the stock cage has its benefits if you don't have to shorten half shafts and lower control arms to reduce track.  Your sketch leads me to believe you are taking it out and designing your own crossmember.  If so, you can duplicate locations for the differential and coilover mounts by taking dimensions from the stock cage like ZMAN did in his '57 Buick?
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24785&highlight=jag+irs
As far as ride height goes, I would remove the Jag coil-overs in your stock cage and replace them with  a set of homemade straps 300mm (11.81 Inches) center to center.  Then you can center the wheels in your wheel wells at the ride height you desire and determine the location of the differential.   The stock Jag coilovers are 13.4 inches fully extended with 3.7 inches of travel.  You'll want the hubs to be on bump stops when the coil-overs are at 10 inches.

Last edited by irstang (5/02/2012 1:40 am)


"'Cars are like primates. They need to squat to go.'—Carroll Smith"
 

5/02/2012 7:09 am  #17


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Thanks for the info, 'Stang...

I'll definitely have some sort of bushings between the pumpkin and the frame. I had seen SnowWhite's setup a few weeks ago, but have not called to check on pricing yet... maybe the way to go, actually.. unless he charges an arm and a leg...

I was also just wondering if anybody knows the "nominal weight" that gives the "horizontal axle" condition. Hell I guess I can google Jag weights...

It's information like you gave me that makes all this project work come out right, and not wrong..

Thanks again..

     Thread Starter
 

5/02/2012 12:07 pm  #18


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Ok, guys, since I turned the rear end over, here's what's in the casting on the bottom..."CO4HU004032" then under that is "+GF+L". Will that identify specifically what it is ?

Thanks in advance.

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5/02/2012 2:15 pm  #19


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Oh, and the tag (there is only one) indicates 2.88 ratio.. there is a stamping in the machined surface next to the cover the appears to be an "L" above an "E" and what looks like "2" and "5". There is also an "86" above the "2" and "5"... so I guess it's an '86 ???? The flange to flange dimension is 61" (or 60.75?)

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5/02/2012 5:25 pm  #20


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Forgot to ask you what front suspension you are running.  I assumed (not good) IFS.   You need to do a roll center diagram for the front before you start welding in the back.  Have you read the thread about roll axis?  Bottom line is to keep the rear roll center slightly higher than the front.  Don't worry about the weight now.  You can get corner weights later and I'll show you how to determine the correct spring rates for the rear.  For now, do a roll center diagram for the front and keep in mind doing one for the back.

In addition to Snow White, Pop Brown has been doing Jag installs for years.  This page came from his catalog.


61" hub to hub.  XJ6, XJ12 or XJS.  Track width on these cars was 58"  The wheels in your picture are wider than early Jags and have a different offset.  Looks like you will not have to vary half-shaft/LCA lengths.  You can place the wheels where you want with custom offsets.


"'Cars are like primates. They need to squat to go.'—Carroll Smith"
 

5/03/2012 8:36 am  #21


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Thanks, 'Stang...

I "thumbed through" the roll axis stuff, but will return and digest it thoroughly. Did you check out my link to my build/photos? I added a fair amount of text to explain what's going on with each pic as appropriate. I'm using an S-10 front clip (already welded in), and the frame is dropped about 3.5". My target ride height for the rear is 6" , and the front will be just slightly lower. I'm planning for the car to ride just like the "original" in my avatar. A "better" pic of my avatar is the first in the series of about a hundred pic's that I've posted.

Hell, if you want to talk about bad handling, when we were kids (15 to 17 years old), we knew NOTHING about ride dynamics. When we reversed the front spindles on the stock '49 front end, the wheels rode real goofy (dont'  remember which direction), so we took a huge torch to the spindles and bent the hell out of them till it "looked right", then took off down the highway.....the funny part was that one had to be VERY careful turning corners at anything over 15 mph, cause the dang thing wanted to turn all by itself .. so one had to pull the steering wheel OUT of the corner...........hahahah... made for some exciting rides.... but nobody was hurt, and the only wreck I ever had was when I  was in HS, after a dental appointment, and still "gassed up", I decided I'd drive by Austin HS (it was about time classes were letting out... well, I made a left hand turn and locked horns with a tan '55 ford at about 5 mph. Three grand damage to the front end. Then when I got home (on my birthday, no less, I had a "dear john" letter awaiting me from my GF..................... bad day... ahahahah . That was in Dec, 1962.

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5/03/2012 8:38 am  #22


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

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5/03/2012 8:47 am  #23


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Oh, and due to the wheelwell height, and interior width, face to face, of the wheelwells, it appears (notes at the bottom of drawing) that I need to cut out (ideally, for 1/2" clearance on the wheel wells, 3-1/8" from each axle/LCA.... but probably will cut 3.5" just for grins. The wheels are stock Chevy truck 15"x8" (inside the flange).

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5/03/2012 8:50 am  #24


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

And by the way, could you "reshoot" the picture of the catalog, maybe zoomed in or closer at a higher resolution? I can read some of the notes, but some of it just blurred together....

I went to Pop Brown's website, but found nothing that looked like what you posted..

Thanks

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5/03/2012 9:47 am  #25


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

And I just found this forum about S-10 geometry. DANG I have a ways to go before I'm done, it appears..

http://www.v8s10.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=28250

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5/03/2012 11:02 am  #26


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Keep in mind, guys, that this is to be a daily driver/cruiser/show off car, and not an oval track or off-road racer. I may take it to a drag strip once or twice just to document my E.T.'s .

     Thread Starter
 

5/03/2012 9:36 pm  #27


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

'49 Ford Coupe wrote:

And by the way, could you "reshoot" the picture of the catalog, maybe zoomed in or closer at a higher resolution? I can read some of the notes, but some of it just blurred together....

I went to Pop Brown's website, but found nothing that looked like what you posted..

Thanks

I found a pictures of Pop Brown's catalog in another forum.  I have not been able to find a better copies.

Are you going with 15 inch wheels for the traditional look?  Something like this:



The reason I ask is that as you remove the wheel/tire you can rotate the bottom inward.  The lack of outboard brakes on the Jag allows you more clearance than you would have on a live axle with outboard drums.  I guess with your 15 inch wheels and tires you need about 8 inches.  If you could go with a 17 or 18 inch rim you would need only about 6 or 7 inches.
This car in Custom Rodder has 18 inch on the rear and 17 inch on the front:


"'Cars are like primates. They need to squat to go.'—Carroll Smith"
 

5/03/2012 9:47 pm  #28


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Thanks, Stang... but I've already got the wheels and ordered the rear tires only the other day... so I'm pretty well stuck with the 255/70R15's... they are 10.2" wide at the widest point. You can see my "11" " dimensions I sketched on the drawing to see what it would take to get the tires out of the wheelwell..

     Thread Starter
 

5/03/2012 10:20 pm  #29


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Yeah, I saw the 11 inch dimension.  If you rotate the wheel in the well as I mentioned you might gain a couple inches.  But the only way I see you getting the wheels and tires mounted right now is if you disconnect the coil-overs and drop the arms down a bit further or flare the fenders for clearance.  I had a similar problem on my '57 Nomad so I feel your pain.  I solved it by rolling the lip on the fender well and going to 18 inch wheels.

Last edited by irstang (5/03/2012 10:31 pm)


"'Cars are like primates. They need to squat to go.'—Carroll Smith"
 

5/04/2012 3:26 pm  #30


Re: Jag XKS into a '49 Shoebox - advice?

Well, guys, I took all measurements for the two front a-arms relative to the frame, and drew the arms in 3D in AutoCad, and as I rotate/orbit the image, DANG it does not make sense... the axis of rotation of the two arms differ by 27 degrees in plan view (x/y) only and about 10 to 15 degrees difference between the axis of the upper and lower control arm when viewed perpendicular to the Z axis.

I have NO idea, until and unless I learn a LOT more about AutoCad, how to translate this into a center of roll or roll axis... hell, it took me two hours to get it drawn up as it is.........ahahaha

     Thread Starter
 

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