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Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Jag IRS into C3 worth the trouble? » 11/03/2014 8:17 pm |
OK, I'll step into this mine field.
C3 'Vette is already IRS but I've never been fond of their cart spring system.
I see several kits out to convert "Vette rear to coil-over, just like what Jag does from the factory.
For the standard 'Vette performance the stock C3 rear is probably fine.
If you have a more ambitious level of driving planned the Jag IRS will allow much easier adjustment of ride height and spring rates.
A coil over conversion of the C3 rear is probably available with no need to engineer anything if you have the $$$.
A Jag conversion will not be cheap by the time it's done either.
Your call as it's your car.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Jag Rear Finally in my '59 El Camino » 11/03/2014 7:16 pm |
All I see are little blue question marks.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 9/01/2014 9:14 pm |
GFinally got a Merkur rear from a manual trans car.
Posted lots of "Before" pics in the import IRS pic thread.
I will need to "Uncage" it similar to what is commonly done for a Jag.
I may be able to use the center of the original cross-member diff support for my install.
I will be looking for some shorter axles, making my own control arms, and my own uprights.
At least the outer carriers are a "Bolt-On" design.
Looking for Euro-Ford bits to convert to disc brakes.
Coil over shocks are about all I will be able to just buy locally.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The import (not Jag) IRS picture thread » 9/01/2014 9:01 pm |
I can never get these post to let me edit, so here is another try at putting up the pics.
Forgot to mention an important item above, the outer hub carriers are a bolt-on type so easily adapted to a custom upright.
Hoping I have enough different angles here to provide useful information.
I will provide measurements as soon as I can get them.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The import (not Jag) IRS picture thread » 9/01/2014 8:48 pm |
OKAY, finally got my Merkur rear and some pictures.
4x108MM PCD, 60" mounting face to mounting face as best I could measure it.
Aluminum carrier with 3.64 gears and an open diff in the manual trans cars, automatic is a little taller.
Fairly heavy in stock form, still much lighter than Jag or 'Vette.
I will get weights of each component when I get it apart.
Forward cross member might make fitting fairly easy in some cars, or narrow it for others.
There is a rear two bolt mounting point on the diff cover as well, factory has a big rubber mount there.
Three mounting bolts at each side of the diff carrier so almos any sort of strong adapter should be possible.
As stock it uses unequal length axles with the common six bolt attachment, I will be looking for axles about 4" shorter per side.
Original springs sat in pockets integral to the lower control arms.
Original shocks mount to the back of the control arms.
All pretty standard and similar to most of the other modern IRS production cars I have looked at.
I always heard that these are "Rare" cars, but at this time I know of SEVEN in fairly local salvage yards.
This rear is as common as dirt in the U.K. and Europe, LOTS of goodie$ are available for it.
Mine started out filthy, begins to look fairly good once it's nicely finned aluminum castings become visible.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 9/01/2014 1:47 am |
Some actual progress of the "I bought another part" sort.
Got a Merkur complete manual trans rear today.
Open diff, not posi as the web info postings call for.
Aluminum carrier and smaller than a T-Bird 8.8 unit.
Some web threads suggest that a GM 7.5" posi can be made to fit.
Ratio is 3.65 which I believe is what the web claimed and should work well with the T5 OD.
Anxious to do some measuring and have another look at the thread on the Sideways Technology forum which gives some clues for how to fit it.
I know I will have to fabricate uprights and "A" arms, the current trailing arms plus axles, are HEAVY and 10" too wide.
I will try to get decent pics from the start once I get it cleaned up.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 8/30/2014 12:05 am |
Half-off at P&P for the holiday weekend.
Got a chance to look around at a few cars they have.
Lexus LS400 diff looks almost like it was made for exchanging into a Triumph except that it has an odd guibo type joint on the input.
Appears to be an open diff.
Porsche 944 trans-axle can be had for under $100.
Interesting, but a lot of work to make it fit and deal with the torque tube.
61 Pontiac Tempest rear complete, another interesting engineering exercise.
Flexible drive-shaft (Really!) and an American made trans-axle intended for a front mounted engine.
Not sure but it may be a three-speed.
Nissan 300 ZX diff, appears to also not be a posi but not too hard to make work.
'96 Ford T-Bird, diff is not as large as I feared, not posi.
CL ad has a Supra posi diff for $200.00
Not sure of the ratio or miles but I know they have been adapted to Spit/GT6 often enough that I think there is a kit available.
Found five Merkur's in semi-local P&P yards!
Rear is very similar to T-bird but a bit lighter.
Also found an Escort GT twin cam parts car locally, not sure if the disc brakes can be adapted to the Merkur hubs?
So I have until monday to decide what to use for my GT6/Buick V6 and T5 IRS rear build.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 8/01/2014 12:49 am |
A step forward always seems to be followed by a step back!
Got a quote on putting the posi from my 3.54 diff into the 3.31 case.
$350.00 plus an install kit ($?) and the 3.54 R&P become useless unless I pay another $350.00+ to have them set up on the open carrier.
Not likely anyone would ever want to use a 3.54 open diff!
The 3.31 is really still a bit low for long distance driving with a 1.1 top gear, 2.88 gears are easy to find but are a slug for around town.
So now I am interested in a factory optional 3.07 with posi center section.
Way back when I first joined this group there was a southern California dealer in Jag parts recommend in one of the threads.
I just spent hours trying to locate that post with no luck.
I did contact them way back when and their pricing was pretty reasonable for an entire rear with posi.
Just the center section should be even less, and much cheaper to ship.
Anyone know who I am talking about, and how to contact them again?
I also thought I had decided on a lower Watts link set-up.
Not thrilled with how low to the ground the lower end of the Watts would be.
While poking around some other threads here I cam across one with a forward link inclined inward to match the pivot point with the inside of the LCA.
For some reason the thought of making that link also act as a low mounted anti-sway bar popped into my head.
Also re-read the old pinion angle debate thread, and the negative camber gain vs LCA angle thread.
So now I have more design thoughts to ponder before I can complete my install.
Looks like I will be lowering my rear static ride height too for several reasons.
Going to have to clean-sheet of paper this, one more time.
At least my basic mounting scheme still looks good to me.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/29/2014 10:59 am |
I do not have the old calipers for the 3.54 diff and they are different than the newer carriers.
I need to find someone to put the posi from the 3.54 into the 3.31 case.
327 is s shorter stroke than a 350, less piston speed and free revving.
To build a 7000+ rpm 350 is big money, 327 will cost less and live longer.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/28/2014 11:21 am |
I guess I am going to chicken out and use the 3.31 open diff insted of the 3.54 posi.
The posi housing is the very early type that uses different calipers which I do not have an easy source for.
It would also require me to turn a lot of RPM at cruising speed with my 27.1" tires and 1.1 top gear.
3.31 is not a LOT better but is close to what I have now.
If I can locate a set of early calipers I could always put the 3.54 in for hill-climb days.
Defineitly looks like I will want my 327 instead of the 350 since it's going to get wound up pretty often.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/27/2014 10:35 pm |
Found some refernce points and measured the center of the arch for the axle from the old frame and live axle.
Now looking at the Watts link, looks like I only have about 3" available end to end since I would not want it on the ground if I get a flat tire.
Tire sidewall is only 5".
Is this enough length?
I could possibly push it as far as 4" end to end if I must.
It also seems that the Watts arms should both be at the same angle and length to work properly.
With my lower suspension arms set level I get about five degrees on the axles.
I know they need some angle for the U-Joints to work properly, is this enough?
I am surprised to see how low several suspension components will sit, bottom of the watts link and the diff in particular.
I will have to measure the low points of the old live axle for comparison.
I've had issues with the front of my frame and "Speed Bumps" in the past.
Clearly no off-road action with this suspension and tires!
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/27/2014 5:33 pm |
Got tired of imprecise wood blocks holding the frame up and made some adjustable stands from ready-rod and scrap.
They go through existing holes in the fram and are fully adjustable.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/25/2014 1:34 am |
Getting close to beginning to weld!
Need a little bit of flat plate and to verify my design.
Tomorrow I will pull the rear wheels to make measurements from the original El Camino axle.
I have the GM chassis book but cannot find anything stating exactly where the axle sits in the frame arch.
I will also make some measurments from an XJ6 for diff height.
What I need some help with is setting pinion angle.
It would seem to me that I want the lower arms to sit flat.
But they are mounted to the pinion housing.
Not sure how much, if any, angle might be desireable?
I thought I saw some discussion of this on the forum but my recent search did not find it.
Now also wondering if I dare make the rear mount without mocking up an engine and transmission first?
Tempted to weld in the upper mount for added frame rigidity but thinking that even a bolt-in design will help if I use poly bushings.
A little concerned that the lower watts link may be fairly close to the ground, need to get the correct lug nuts to mount my wheels for a measurement.
Watts link pivoting arm will have to be fairly short.
Trailing arms might be simpler but get in the way of the exhaust system.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The aftermarket IRS picture thread » 7/23/2014 8:18 pm |
I've gotten his email and have sent him a request to sell me a set of drawings.
Awaiting his response.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The aftermarket IRS picture thread » 7/21/2014 11:43 pm |
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/17/2014 11:01 am |
Yes, fitted to the bottom of the frame arch.
Have to find some suitable parts.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/16/2014 4:43 pm |
Quick pic of a rough mock-up.
Not the actual steel just some pieces I have laying around.
"K" shaped top mount.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » 1957 Chevy Pickup Truck... » 7/16/2014 10:46 am |
I've always intended to put a Jag engine into a Chevy, just to make the world better balanced.
'57 Chevy is lighter than the Jag, performance would be good.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Jag IRS keeping it simple » 7/16/2014 9:50 am |
There is no reason why a custom mount cannot be a drop-out type.
I am putting Jag IRS into a '68 El Camino and it will be a custom mounted removeable set up.
Start with your frame width, compare to Jag, look at your ride height, wheel diameter, etc.
Even if you keep the cage there will be some custom mounting required.
Several threads here on doing this, I know the Jag into Chevy truck is popular so you may find a thread with you exact conversion.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/16/2014 12:15 am |
Well, I'm committed now! (Should be committed?)
Just cut most of the spring perches off.
Left a little to reinforce the frame.
I have a slight rake to my car with the original suspension.
Keeping that with the IRS, it IS an El Camino and levels out with a load.
255/60-15 rear tires, so 13" from ground to the center of the hub.
Rear frame is 8.5" off the ground at my measuring point.
I am using all dimensions at intended empty ride height.
I have 4.5" of suspension travel, I figure 4.0" after I add a 1/2" thick bump stop.
Top of the upright contacts the bottom of the frame arch at end of travel just like the Jag did.
Even with only two coil-over springs I expect this to be much stiffer than the original springs.
I am going to make some adjustable jack screws so that I can set my frame heights exactly rather than depend on blocks.
I beleive I also want the axles to set level/horizontal at ride height.
So I am going to have to lower my diff about an inch from where it is blocked up now.
Question!
What if any angle for the lower arms?
Fore to aft dead level, or some degree of angle?
If at an angle how much?
Use is fast road car, might do a hill climb or Silver State Challenge, heck, maybe Willow Springs track day with the Ferrari Club just for giggles.
Bought material for the mount today.
2" x 2" .120 wall for the main mounting bar across the frame.
1.5" x 1.5" .120 for the forward reinforcements.
I've committed to the idea that the upper mount will have a "K" shape.
The back of the K is the main beam, the forward legs will bolt into the original upper trailing arm mounts.
I think it will be stronger than the original frame.
I also intend to create a lower brace from the forward tie-plate to the original lower trailing arm mounts.
So I will have a 3-D mount, well braced in all directions.
I like only have to add two mounting brackets for the main beam.
I will also have to add four simple moun
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The import (not Jag) IRS picture thread » 7/14/2014 8:56 pm |
After MUCH searching I finally located a couple of useful Merkur IRS pics.
About 58" track when stock so still a bit wide for my use.
But also similar to the T-Bird but a bit lighter and fairly strong, seems to be good for about 300 HP in a light car.
Since it's English Ford/Sierra there are tons of LSD's and orther upgrades available.
Seems to be a fairly common swap into older cars in the U.K.
Most from this site,
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/14/2014 3:51 pm |
Got a look in daylight, think I've got most of it figured out for rough design.
Plan is that it will unbolt for service, bushed mounting.
Probably overkill but I think I will have six attachments for the carrier.
The usual mount across the top, I have to cut away the old spring perches for access to the area i want to put the mounts at.
A pair of mounting brackets extending forward from the top mount to the old Chevy upper trailing arm mounts.
A pair of arms forward from the front diff tie-bar to the old lower trailing arm mounts.
This will give me a lot of triangulation despite being mounted on bushings.
It also incorporates oringinal Chevy frame brackets at four of the six mounting points.
I dont have a handy cross member for an angled trailing arm mounting point.
I'm liking this Watts link, simple and inexpensive since it uses the existing trailing arm mount.
Have to get my wheels off the car and some lug-nuts that fit the Jag hubs in order to do a better mock-up.
Need to measure my current frame ride height front and rear as well.
Need a trans cross-member so I can mock an engine and trans to check drive line angle and pinion angle.
Pics at page one show what I am working with on the Chevy frame.
What am I forgetting?
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/14/2014 12:28 am |
Oh, and on the Trick-6, I'm now looking for Sierra/Merkur IRS pics and info.
Has the right PCD for my wheels and I'm pretty sure they are disc brake as well.
A bit rare in the U.S. but I do have a line on a couple that are just a little too far away to be convenient.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/14/2014 12:23 am |
Finally got to drag the Jag rear under the El Camino frame.
Threw a few blocks under it get a clue how well it fits.
Have to get some precise measurements and mock it up much more carefully, but at first glance it looks great!
If there were a good way to use the spring pockets as mounting points a bolt-in conversion would probably be possible with a little extra work.
Original upper trailing arm mounts could certainly be utilized if I do a soft mount for the new cradle.
Lower trailing arm mounts could probably be re-used for the Jag very similar to the Jag originals if I did not want to improve that so much.
I'm thinking the spring pockets are coming off the frame to make room for the cross bar over the diff.
Upper Chevy trailing arm mounts may have a reinforcement point welded into them for upper mount triangulation.
I really have to determine the diff mount height before I can finalize anything.
Guess I need to review a lot of prior post.
Will try to take pic of what I have so far and post it.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The import (not Jag) IRS picture thread » 7/13/2014 4:20 pm |
AARGH!
Still no Sierra/Merkur pics.
A bazillion made, and no pics on the web.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » The Ford IRS picture thread » 7/13/2014 4:12 pm |
Guys, I need info on the Sierra/Merkur IRS.
How similar, if at all, to the T-Bird/Mustang version?
How strong?
Should be much smaller than the U.S. Ford 8.8 diff.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/13/2014 12:06 am |
I now have a hazy idea of how to do my IRS for the "Trick-6". (TRIumph GT-6 + buICK V6 engine)
Of course wanting to use my 4x108 PCD 14" x 6" Enkie (Very light) wheels gets to be an additional issue.
Looks like Ford or Supra diff. will be easiest.
Both can be had with forward mounts that may be close to what I need.
Ford should be unbreakable even with an aluminum carrier, I only have a little 225 V6.
Supra may be smaller and so easier to fit.
Ford appears easier to find, in cast iron.
Supra seems to be a little hard to get, CL sellers don't answer if you live more than a couple of miles away and tend to want high prices despite not even knowing the gear ratio's.
Supra's do show up in the P&P salvage yards, IF you can get there fast enough.
If not they will be on CL a day later, at 5x the price.
Outer end may be simpler if I can use Ford, some are the correct PCD, have to verify that some IRS are still 4 x 108mm.
Also need to confirm a 14" wheel clears.
No matter what I use it's going to be custom control arms.
Found this reference on the web, from V8S2000 board:
"Ford 8.8 IRS Info
ALL 99/01/03/04 Cobra axles have a 28 Spline outer that goes into the hub
99 Cobra axles have a 28 spline inner that goes into the diff
01 Cobra's came with stronger axles than 99
01/03/04 Cobra axles have a 31 spline inner that goes into the diff
03/04 Cobra's came with stronger axles than 99/01
03/04 Cobra's came with Carbon kevlar clutch packs
03/04 Cobra's came with larger pinion flange than 99/01
All Cobra's came with limited slip
There was not a 2000 or 2002 Cobra released on the american market.
The 8.8 IRS was offered in the following vehicles
99/01/03/04 Cobra
1989-1997 Thunderbird Supercoupe (All Posi-traction)
1992-1997 Thunderbird V-8 models with rear disc brakes(some posi-traction)3.08, 3.27
1992-1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (All aluminum carrier, most non-posi-traction) 3.07, 3.08, 3.27, 3.55, 3.73
1989-1992 Mercury Cougar XR-7, supercharged V-6 (All posi-trac
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 7/06/2014 10:42 pm |
Got the body off the GT-6 today.
This gave me a chance to see what the previous builder had done, a true nightmare!
I know a four link live axle can work, but this abomination never stood a chance!
Looking at other details I have decided to start with an uncut frame rather that spend a lot of time reworking the bodge the last guy made of this one.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 2/27/2014 1:14 am |
A late night update.
Found some great pics of Fiero rear suspension uprights modified to use an upper A arm.
LONG thread with CAD drawings and much discussion here,
I am not interested in the rocker shocks and his drawings will not directly work for my use.
I probably have to build a sub-frame at the rear of the GT6 but with the body off that should not be hard.
I hope to be able to leave the wheel wells alone.
This may be a way to keep a budget build while also getting much improved rear suspension geometry and brakes.
Since I want to keep 13" wheels I expect to retain the original Fiero calipers.
Much more research to do, hoping to visit a junk yard this week with some calipers and digital camera in hand.
Independent Rear Suspension Forum » Hi, I have two IRS projects to work out. » 2/26/2014 9:12 pm |
Poked around the web and this forum tonight looking for clues on my GT6 rear IRS build.
Tried the Chevrolet IRS thread and only saw ONE pic of a Fiero rear, TONS of Corvette pics.
I'm going to try to get some measurements and pics from a Fiero.
My thought is to toss the strut and replace it with an upper arm and coil over shock.
I can get a complete rear pretty cheap at the junk yard.
Section the cradle, or maybe cut it down and weld it direcly to the GT6 frame?
Toyota Supra or 90's T-Bird diff.
Only needs to survive about 250 HP.
I am surprised to not see more discussion of modified Fiero IRS here.